Rape is Hilarious: Put to Music Edition

Part wev in an ongoing series…

Summary: A couple is on their first date, and the man is terminally bored by the (cardboard cutout of an actual) woman whom he nonetheless wants to fuck, so he’s “feigning interest, feigning interest” while she spews trite bullshit…until, that is, they’re “a few more drinks in” and she says she French-kissed her friend, and then he’s “gaining interest, gaining interest.” In no time, they’re heading back to his place, where the (cardboard cutout of an actual) woman passes out. But “hey—there’s no one around; I could still knock it out.” And then he’s “gaining entrance, gaining entrance.” But just as the (cardboard cutout of an actual) woman registers horror at what’s happening, he says, “Just kidding! … I would never do that! As far as you know…” And thusly does the hilarious song end.

This completely uproarious jokesong about rape comes to us care of actor and musician Josh Hopkins, whose fans think the video is all kinds of funny and anyone who doesn’t—surprise!—is humorless and needs to lighten up.

Gee, what does that remind me of? Oh yeah—this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And on and on and on because there are just so many goddamned hilarious things about rape, the jokes never fucking end.

In 2004, there were 209,880 victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assaults according to the 2004 National Crime Victimization Survey. Because of its methodology, these figures do not include victims 12 or younger. The Bureau of Justice’s National Incident-Based Reporting System data from law enforcement agencies covering the years 1991 through 1996 showed that 34% percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to the participating law enforcement agencies were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to the participating law enforcement agencies were under age 6.

Hilarious.

[Hat tip to Tracey.]

175 Comments

Filed under 01_shakespeares_sister

175 responses to “Rape is Hilarious: Put to Music Edition

  1. Annie

    I honestly don’t understand why people think “Having sex with somebody incapable of consenting isn’t the same as rape.” But even if you give them that, where does the idea that it’s not a shitty thing (among the shittiest) to do come from??

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  4. stekatz

    In my opinion the cardboard cutout sits on the other side of the table.

    Has anyone else noticed that what passes for humor in the dude world is getting pretty damn trite and stale?

  5. mAndrea

    I think castration is hilarious but nobody ever makes jokes about that. I wonder why not?

    Just for turn-about-is-fair-play, I googled for castration jokes the other day. Found lots of people denigrating all those evil misogynist-hating bitches who supposedly had lists of castration jokes taped to their portable chainsaws, but amazingly enough I only found THREE actual castration jokes from my search.

    For some reason, everybody seems to think that castration jokes were TooSerious™ to be repeated, but rape jokes are just fine.

  6. Few things are more interesting, after all, than a man so tediously boring that he doesn’t need you to be interested, conscious, or caring to “rub one out” inside you.

  7. Jay in Oregon

    I wonder if the guys who think that shit is funny would laugh at this:

    If you went camping and woke up in the morning, covered in bruises and sore all over, with a tub of lubricant next to you and grass stains on your knees and elbows. Would you tell anyone?

    (After the respondant says “no”) Wanna go camping?

    Actually, they probably still would think it’s funny, because That Would Never Happen To Them. Which is the real problem.

  8. I’ve been on plenty of dates with guys who did nothing but talk about themselves and how great they are.

    Some people are terrible conversationalists and generally dull to be around. Let’s not blame women for that one.

    That said, this video and the fact that I’m sure there are tons of people of both sexes who find this just fucking hilarious make me so fucking angry.

  9. This comment says it all:

    wow you guys take the song way to seriously, its a song! its not like he really is going to rape a girl and if he does well that his business not yours, congratulations you need to grow up.

    Will you people just grow up and let him rape someone if he wants to? It’s none of your business!

  10. The comments there… oye.

    I blame Paul for making me curious!!!

    I dunno what to say about the video…

  11. I love being married! I can get laid whenever I want and I don’t have to deal with this crap anymore! The creeps and the lameness…We’ve all played the part of the “cardboard cutout” at some point…yay!

  12. The comments there… oye.

    Exactly why I refuse to have anything to do with MySpace.

    I dunno what to say about the video…

    How about: It’s offensive, obnoxious, unfunny, misogynist shite?

  13. Melissa McEwan

    We’ve all played the part of the “cardboard cutout” at some point…yay!

    I haven’t.

  14. anangryoldbroad

    I really hate this fucking culture,alot of the time.

    Thanks Melissa for keeping on this. When rape is a joke it means the culture thinks it’s OK,no big deal. Well,it’s not ok,it’s never gonna be ok,and it’s not up for negotiation. Why the hell should it be? Seriously,what is the defense for chosing to rape someone? Some things are just plain wrong,no explainations,no excuses. And I wonder if any idiot rape apologist realizes that their defense of this bullshit are pretty much THE SAME DEFENSES ALL SEXUAL PREDITORS USE when confronted with what they’ve done?

    Ack. WTF is wrong with people?

  15. Rhiannon

    Paul- That was the comment I read that was the stupidest. The very thought that “if he rapes someone that’s his business”… ugh! No it’s not, it’s EVERYONE’s business, because that makes him a threat to society – HALF of this society is FEMALE!

  16. Nik E Poo

    The thing that stood out for me … was the smoothness with which this little video slid into rape. Not the harsh abruptness of a frontal assault. No red lights … no sirens … just silence. The empty silence that life often presents … in which routine and obligation and social pressure melt away … leaving people to make a decision for themselves.

  17. How about: It’s offensive, obnoxious, unfunny, misogynist shite?

    Perfect. It’s offensive, obnoxious, unfunny, misogynist shite.

    I tend to get speechless in “Wow, really? Wow…” moments.

  18. Angry Irish Bitch

    I had a very long response to this as a rape victim. However, that has been abandoned by anger.

    Last I checked .. Rape isn’t a decision a woman makes.

    What fucking planet do you live on Nik E Poo?

  19. Natalie

    I certainly didnt find this video funny but I did find it a cautionary tale. The woman did get drunk enough to pass out with a perfect stranger. His last words – I would never do that, for all you know.
    The guy is a jerk, plenty of those around.

    This is by no means suggesting that rape is the fault of a woman, just that we all can take certain steps to make ourselves a bit safer.

  20. I tend to get speechless in “Wow, really? Wow…” moments.

    That’s why i’m here to help! ;)

  21. Melissa McEwan

    The thing that stood out for me … was the smoothness with which this little video slid into rape.

    Absolutely. What totally turned my stomach was how it was, disturbingly, the perfect video representation of something I wrote last November about (date) rape:

    “At this point, I think it’s worth noting that we’re talking about a very particular kind of rape. It’s not the kind we might typically associate with the word ‘rapist,’ which tends to conjure images of a masked man hiding in a hedge on a deserted street, who overcomes a female passerby and forcibly submits her to his assault. It’s the kind that we don’t like to think about, the kind in which the opportunity presented by a woman who can’t resist, or even say no, becomes irresistible to a man who wears no mask and carries no knife. He is in every other way an average man, who may even have been the focus of this woman’s friendly attention earlier in the evening. He may even feel guilty about what he’s done tomorrow, but it does not stop him tonight—and he does not consider himself a rapist. And what separates him from most men is that he chooses to abdicate his responsibility in not hurting another human being for his own fleeting pleasure. … What makes the man who has never raped before, who may even have a girlfriend or wife at home whom he does not mistreat, who appears to his coworkers and friends and family to be the proverbial Nice Guy, look at the unconscious form of an incapacitated woman and decide, unlike most men, that it’s okay to fuck her? What, in his mind, makes her his, to do with what he pleases? We are fooling ourselves if we believe he is an easily identifiable abomination. He is not.”

    It gave me shivers when I looked that up and read it again after watching the video, to think about how the video quite literally conveys what happens in a (date) rapist’s mind and turns it into a punchline.

  22. Melissa McEwan

    Last I checked .. Rape isn’t a decision a woman makes.

    I believe Nik E. was referencing the man’s decision to rape/not rape her.

  23. Rhiannon

    “Last I checked .. Rape isn’t a decision a woman makes.

    I believe Nik E. was referencing the man’s decision to rape/not rape her.

    I understand why “people” upset her though. Poor phrasing on Nik E.’s part.

  24. Melissa McEwan

    This is by no means suggesting that rape is the fault of a woman, just that we all can take certain steps to make ourselves a bit safer.

    Oh sweet lord please spare me.

  25. Brynn

    Ok. First, Tart is totally right. As a queer who couldn’t think “straight” to save my life–literally–and as a person who has been perceived by the world as a straight woman, a gay man, and a straight man, I feel qualified to weigh in on this one. First, if you want to give awards for the most boring, self-centered, egotistical conversationalists on the entire planet, I can guarantee you it will go to a straight man. Case in point? The last straight party I attended as a woman, at which a guy talked to me non-stop for close to 30 minutes about his dog. I could not get a word in edgewise and while at first I thought it was charming that he loved his pet so much, my eyes were glazing over by minute 10. I started looking around the party–this was San Francisco, btw–and EVERYWHERE I saw women standing, listening and nodding while guys expounded. Or, in a few rare instances, guys “talking” to each other, which consisted of a competition to one-up each other rather than a genuine exchange of ideas.

    Guys like Josh are the reason I am eternally grateful that I was not born in a male body. To look at his video, he “has it all:” he’s white, male, young, conventionally good-looking, smart enough to (presumably) write catchy lyrics and decent music, and well placed enough to get himself noticed.

    And what does he do with all this good fortune? Produce one of the meanest, most misogynist pieces of work I’ve ever seen.

    As many times as I’ve thought to myself, “I’d give 25 years of my life to know what it’s like to have a penis,” many MANY more times I’ve thought to myself, “Having a penis is simply not worth the trade-off of being a clueless, selfish, arrogant, uncaring, and mercenary prick who despises women.”

    And I KNOW the guys who live in Shakesville are not like that. Which is why I admire you all so much, because–unlike me–you had to resist all the power of society’s socialization to become the way you are.

    And Josh, I wouldn’t be you for all the money in the world and a penis to boot.

  26. Brynn

    Oh, one more thing…I don’t think the video actually “smoothly slid” into rape at all. The warning signs were there from the beginning. The extreme objectification of women. The idea that men and women are completely different creatures, who want completely different outcomes out of a date. The idealization of men and male culture, along with the glorification of “men as eternal boys.” The assumption that men and women play roles in order to get their very different needs met. The myth that male aggression is a given and that it is founded on sexual frustration-there’s even a guy in a solder’s uniform crawling along in one scene! What’s that? Women by refusing to fuck guys create warfare?! Up-end Lysistrata any?!

    The very refrain, “I’m feigning interest,” in other words, (making a joke about) pretending I like you even though all I want is a warm hole to stick my dick into. How much more misogynistic can you get?

    Rape happens in a culture precisely because all these elements–and more, including the fact that men have more power in almost every aspect of society–come together.

    So, no, as soon as I heard the lyrics, saw the guys giving one another sympathetic looks, then going off to play tackle football and “rough house” with one another while a “dummy” stood in for them, I would have known what was coming even without the title to the post. In the same way that, as a “queer guy” or previously a woman, I know to walk to the other side of the street when I sense a particular dynamic in a group of men.

  27. As many times as I’ve thought to myself, “I’d give 25 years of my life to know what it’s like to have a penis,” many MANY more times I’ve thought to myself, “Having a penis is simply not worth the trade-off of prick who despises women.”

    Brynn, the truth is that many people who are born with a penis spend a lot of time feeling inadequate and wishing it were bigger.

    I believe that “humor” like this stems more from feelings of inadequacy in addition to being clueless, selfish, arrogant, uncaring, and mercenary. That’s a dangerous combination.

  28. I certainly didnt find this video funny but I did find it a cautionary tale. The woman did get drunk enough to pass out with a perfect stranger.

    So not the point. Passing out drunk is nobody’s free pass to do what they will with your body. Period. End of story.

  29. Ok. First, Tart is totally right.

    Yeah, that just never gets old.

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  31. cycles

    Oh, mAndrea. Don’t tease. Tell the jokes. Pretty please?

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  33. shen

    ok, i may or may not be getting into a lot of trouble on this one, but……

    “I honestly don’t understand why people think “Having sex with somebody incapable of consenting isn’t the same as rape.””

    ok, forget that, just for a moment. and if i am an insensitive clod for this, so be it, but while i agree with that comment, BEFORE i think of that, i think “i don’t understand why people think having sex with somebody incapable OF BLOODY WELL HAVING SEX BACK is pleasurable!”

    i mean, maybe it is just me, but what the hell is the turn on? yes, yes, yes, i know, rape is about anger, and hate, and not sex, and blah blah.

    but that isn’t what is being suggested here, is it? nor is it really sex. this is a whole other classification to me.

    maybe i am the weird one here, but i find (my partner) being turned on, a turn on. are there really people out there who are so internally guided that they are sexually excited on their own rather than in concert with someone?

    …or is it back to anger and hate and power?

    i just don’t get it.

  34. Liz

    Brynn: The very refrain, “I’m feigning interest,” in other words, (making a joke about) pretending I like you even though all I want is a warm hole to stick my dick into. How much more misogynistic can you get?

    Indeed — disregarding what happens once they leave the bar/restaurant, the message I felt like I was getting from the song was “I’m really not interested in anything you have to say unless you’re talking about your sexual proclivities.” Sweet!

    Grrrrrrr.

  35. Would it be funnier if someone shoved a fluorescent lightbulb up his ass while he slept?

    No, it would not.

  36. Melissa McEwan

    Oh, one more thing…I don’t think the video actually “smoothly slid” into rape at all. The warning signs were there from the beginning.

    For you. How many people do you think have watched this video and thought it was fucking hilarious and didn’t see the end coming at all?

  37. And if we’re going to hate on cliches (interest in Kabbalah, veganism) then it must be said that the “I make out with my girlfriends, tee-hee!” thing is so five years ago. I can’t believe dudes are still impressed by it.

  38. mAndrea, there’s a castration joke in the Assvertising thread.

  39. Angry Irish Bitch

    Melissa and Rhiannon and especially Nik E Poo:

    I am none too angry nor too Irish not to admit I let my experience totally cloud the meaning behind Nik E Poo’s post. I am sorry I overreacted.

    As is often the case in date rape, my rapist blamed me. Upon confronting him, he had all sorts of reasons why he thought it was what I wanted. Nevermind the fact I clawed him with my nails and was hysterical through out. I am afraid not enough time has passed (it happened at school last year) for me not to misinterpret everything.

    My apologies for the overreaction. I guess I just was hypersensitive to the subject after that assholes video and let that carry over when reading Nik E Poo’s post.

  40. Brynn

    Btw, has the link to the video been shut down…?

    How many people do you think have watched this video and thought it was fucking hilarious and didn’t see the end coming at all?

    Really? Guys? Or women?

    It’s so hard for me to imagine women being so out of tune with guys…Maybe it comes from all those years living as a dyke, being perceived by straight men as both “female” and “competition.” Which meant my hackles went up whenever I was forced to interact, even casually, with more than two guys (strangers) at a time. Heck, even one guy at a time, if he was behind the wheel of a car! Or taking a leak in public up against a wall, parked car, or bush, and I happened to pass by.

    the truth is that many people who are born with a penis spend a lot of time feeling inadequate and wishing it were bigger.

    I know that’s true. And it’s so fucking sad. Size is, IMHO, so very unimportant. But what do I know? I’m happy as shit with my 3 inches!

  41. nightshift66

    shen,
    I have concluded that any desire to force intercourse onto someone is always about power, hate, pain, and/or fear. There are some sadistic creatures among our species. Some of them are excited by the pain and fear of their victims, who want to hear the screams and the pleas; those are the ones we tend to think of as ‘rapists.’ I think the rapists who prefer passed out victims may want to feel power and control without the risk that she kicks his ass, or can later identify him. Maybe some rapists are just presented with a situation and are amoral and solipcist enough not to care about the victim, if they just see her as no more than a blow-up doll.

    And that does seem to be the ‘point’ of the video to me, that the women aren’t to be accorded the same respect as a guy.

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  44. Elizabeth

    The thing that surprised/shocked me most about this video was that he included the gay male couple.

    What was the point of that? Gay men rape too so it’s ok?

  45. Melissa McEwan

    Really? Guys? Or women?

    Both. Check out the comments at his page. There are plenty of people who really found the rape part to be an awesome punchline, which indicates they weren’t expecting it. He ushered them in unawares.

    Sometimes it’s hard to remember that people who haven’t trained their eyes to see this stuff really, truly don’t.

    Ref. Nightshift in the Assvertising thread, who noted he would have never connected the “Chicks with Swords” to a specific kind of porn (or porn at all?)–and I’m not picking on him or criticizing him by pointing that out, just acknowledging how different can be the reaction of someone who never had to think about such things because it doesn’t apply to him.

    And there are lots of women, btw, who don’t think this sort of shit applies to them, either–in no small part because victim-blaming is so prevalent, and the responsibility for preventing rape so firmly and singularly placed on women, that they begin to believe they can avoid being raped by their own will, wits, and wisdom.

  46. nightshift66

    The thought occurred to me that, had the video had a mix of guys, girls, gays and lesbians boring their respective dates, and then ended with everyone who was bored making excuses to get the hell out of their and the boring people were all left alone in the bar, it would’ve been really funny.

    Of course, the song would have to be reworked, because then the theme would be “Ever get caught in a date from hell?” (which most people of all types can appreciate) rather than what it is.

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  48. Brynn

    the ‘point’ of the video to me, that the women aren’t to be accorded the same respect as a guy.

    Nightshift, I’d go further and say the point of the video is that women are almost not the same species as guys. Sure, we can all mate and produce viable offspring. But beyond that, women are absolutely other.

    I used to always see this guy in the water when I was surfing in San Diego and eventually got to know him through our conversations. He was an odd mix of characteristics, capable of putting himself across as a “nice guy” when he wanted to. Over time, tho, I came to understand that he was absolutely self-centered, and willing to be ruthless and a total asshole when he thought he could get away with it. I’d actually use the word, “amoral” to describe him.

    The way he talked about his wife was incredible. It was as if she was incapable of having the same adult needs, emotions, and even abilities as himself. He spoke of her in a way as if she were not fully human. It was quite disturbing.

    I’ve always suspected he was involved in defacing my car. Someone scratched “Die you bisexual faggots,” on the hood one day when it was parked at the beach. Now, while I am somewhat readable as queer, he was the one surfer who knew I had a girlfriend but was bisexual, due to my stupid disclosure to him before I fully realized how untrustworthy he was.

    Sadly, he’s not the only guy who has talked about women in that utterly debasing way to me since I transitioned.

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  50. Nik E Poo

    Rape isn’t a decision a woman makes.

    Please let me apologize for poor writing skills. Sorry. Me no rite so gud. I tend to reveal very little about myself when I blog. I like to think I do this … so that people will communicate with me … without the baggage of attempting to infer what I “would” think … who I look like … who I remind them of, am I hot, etc. But a big part of it … is that I’m very shy … or more accurately, I’m a total chicken. But I will volunteer … drawing from “Good Will Hunting” … that I do have “experience” with the topic at hand. I must admit its relevant, so now its out there.

    Next, I agree 100% with the above comment … and I was by no means trying to make an assertion that a victim can decide. I was referring to the rapist’s decision point. I point it out specifically … because often times in life … that moment of turning to evil … is not accompanied by screaming or alarms … but rather occurs quietly in the mind. So for me … there is:

    1) The obvious component of how this video contributes to the rape culture, by making light comedy of it. By attempting to trot out the idea that “she wanted it anyway” … or in some sick way … that he was entitled to rape her … because he sat thru boring dinner conversation with her. This shit is what creates a comfort level … almost to the point of making rape an expected outcome of such situations.

    2) That this video exemplifies the calmness with which people can make evil decisions. The silence I referred to was both literal and figurative. He actually stopped the sound and had a pregnant pause … during which the man decided to rape his date. People who have lost … or never had a moral center … people who absorb social conditioning in place of ethics or compassion or self awareness … these are the dangerous fuckers in society. These are the people who’s minds quietly bend around “war of choice” or “a little torture” or date rape.

  51. nightshift66

    Melissa is right that I wouldn’t have connected it with CWD porn, although I figured that the guy had a fetish. I don’t have a woman’s experience with life, and so I can’t empathize even when I do sincerely sympathize. (I can only try to understand through analogy experiences I’ve never had.)

    And yes, Brynn, until about halfway through the video I was smiling, not because I saw it as anti-woman to that point, but anti-bad date. When it shifted to her getting drunk I started clueing in that this wasn’t going good places, but I didn’t see the rape scene at the end coming at all.

    Which is why I come here daily to get views, opinions, and life experiences I don’t have. It’s also why I almost never comment on (1) rape threads or (2) GLBTQ threads. I was advised to shut up and learn, and I already knew from my real life that is pretty good advice when you are in a different environment. So I did, and I have.

  52. PortlyDyke

    “The thought occurred to me that, had the video had a mix of guys, girls, gays and lesbians boring their respective dates, and then ended with everyone who was bored making excuses to get the hell out of their and the boring people were all left alone in the bar, it would’ve been really funny.”

    Yes, and if the “homo” date had ended with a passed out guy and implications of a rape at the end, the video would be banned by now.

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  54. PortlyDyke

    Sis, I think that it’s even worse than “unexpected” (the ending) — it’s a gradual process of desensitization (there’s that word again) — equating “you’re so boring that I should leave the table and leave a cut-out” with “you’re so drunk that I should rape you”.

    These are the aspects that I find so disturbing — Date Rape = Boring Conversation and Forgettable Handbag

  55. DWF

    So, did anyone else flag it as abuse to MySpace? (I think you have to be logged in to do that.) I did.

  56. Brynn

    Check out the comments at his page.

    Liss, I know I should, but I can’t bring myself to do it. I’ve spent all week trying to get a group of mostly smug, uncaring male editors to return my calls so I could argue with them that, in the interest of fairness and accuracy in reporting, they should publish my column to balance out the snide, erroneous, harmful sh*te they published last Saturday in that horrible column by A. M. Hourihane.

    All to no avail. (So far. I haven’t quite yet given up.)

    I trust your points are true. Basically, I just really REALLY wish they weren’t.

  57. nightshift66

    Brynn,
    I was already writing when you last posted. I agree with you about those who hate women; I just have a tendency toward understatement sometimes. I have seen a lot of very real ‘haters’ of all sorts of differences, be they race, sex, religion, national origin, you name it. Let’s face it, where I grew up it was practically a pastime to hate somebody. And even today, there are a lot of very old notions about a ‘woman’s place’ that are still the opinion of the majority of both men and women. (Well, at least the stated opinion of women, many of whom I am certain just say what’s expected to ‘avoid trouble,’ as the euphemism is down here.) I’m sometimes called cynical, but like all people I can only draw conclusions and inferences from the data I have. That data tells me that most people are cruel, petty, schadenfreude-riddled, and want to take it out on someone weaker than themselves.

  58. Brynn

    And Nightshift, re: I was advised to shut up and learn, and I already knew from my real life that is pretty good advice when you are in a different environment

    Thank you.

  59. SJ

    Ugh, that video made my skin crawl. Bleah. I feel dirty, but I had to know what it was.

    I, too, was weirded out by the inclusion of the gay man. Was that supposed to be some weird backwards attempt at being PC or something?

  60. Nik E Poo

    I am sorry I overreacted.

    Absolutely no apology necessary. My shit writing speaks for itself.

  61. Brynn

    DWF, how do you flag it as abuse? I’ve signed in, but I don’t see a link…

  62. sari

    I agree with nightshift that at the beginning I thought it was more about miserable dates. Honestly for the beginning of the video, I imagined what it would be like if we swapped the men for the women in the video. I’ve been that woman feigning interest. The big difference being that I would feign interest on a horrible date because I would want to be polite until I had been there long enough to leave. I don’t feign interest to get laid, but just not to be overtly rude. I’ve been on a date with a guy who spent a 20 minutes complaining about his ex-wife. Yeesh.

    Also – re: the men all leaving their dates and hanging out with each other. Well, I’ve had women friends who met each other at a speed dating event: the men were a bust but the women caught each other’s eye and became friends.

    So – for me the problem/difference is that the guy would pretend to be interested to get laid, rather than just marking time until the date is over. The end of the video is, of course, repulsive in a myriad of ways.

    Also, while listenting to that guy complain, I kept thinking: if you don’t want to be bored, why not date women who you find interesting/smart/funny/generous/inquisitive rather than the obvious pretty girls (not that you can’t be pretty and smart, but you know what I mean).

  63. JB

    Clearly this Josh guy doesn’t get that the entire video is guilty of the misogyny that finds its extreme expression in the ending. His comment on his myspace page: “Some people find the ending to be a little, let’s say…morally questionable. Here’s a (slightly) more family-friendly cut.”

    Not just “a little” questionable asshole, and this isn’t even “slightly” better. The comment reminds me of Isaiah Washington’s enforced psa following his homophobic rant. Oh, if only he really “got it.”

    In what universe could this version be construed as “family friendly” or friendly in any way?? What a jerk.

  64. Brynn

    Well, Liss, I couldn’t bring myself to read the comments there, but I posted one of my own. Don’t know if it’ll make it past his moderation. I decided to try for a serious appeal. Probably foolish, but chalk it up to my aspiring, budding Buddhism. Perhaps, if nothing else, I’ll plant a seed that will grow later…

    Dude, this is the most misogynist piece of work I’ve seen in, well, decades.

    And considering how misogynist popular culture tends to be, that’s saying a lot.

    Seriously, why don’t you turn your obvious talents toward something more enlightened, that doesn’t objectify women to the point of dehumanization, idealize the very worst aspects of manhood, and make a snide, insiders’ joke of rape?

    Or is your aim to find work in Hollywood?

    Ignore the accolades. Just because the production values shine, your music is catchy, the faces pretty, and the acting not bad, this empty, malicious and—yes, harmful, because its underlying message glorifies violence toward women—work is worse than a waste your talent.

  65. PortlyDyke

    “I don’t feign interest to get laid, but just not to be overtly rude.”

    I suspect this is why I am Chardonnay

  66. There was so much hatred and contempt for women in that video; it was really hard to watch. And now that I have, I want to throw up.

  67. We’ve all played the part of the “cardboard cutout” at some point…yay!

    Melissa answers: I haven’t.

    And I add: Neither have I.

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  69. Graham

    Hey Josh!

    When you drunkenly pass out on the couch I gonna shove this 2 by 4 up your ass.

    Just kidding!

    What…you don’t find that funny? Where’s you sense of hah hah, dude?

  70. katecontinued

    Nor I . . .

    I can’t watch it. Just reading the comments is enough.

  71. wiggles

    Here’s a charmer:

    06/08/2007 06:08:00PM
    Funny as hell! But you should know, a bunch of hard-up feminazi dykes hate this! They should get over themselves and maybe somebody’d be interested in them, huh?

    If I had a MySpace account I might reply, but I don’t know what to say to that. Perhaps something along the lines of ‘nodding off through dinner and raping your date when she passes out isn’t a compliment or an affirmation.’ But this kind of person isn’t worth the waste of breath anyway.

  72. wiggles

    Oh and he lives in my neck of the woods. Awesome. I’ll have to keep an eye out.

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  75. Marla

    The subject matter is bad enough but the fact that he can’t play the guitar or is even the slightest bit clever (subject matter not included) just tops the whole nasty thing off. It’s a wonder why I think most guys are just….there.

  76. Dan

    Tart quoted and wrote: I certainly didnt find this video funny but I did find it a cautionary tale. The woman did get drunk enough to pass out with a perfect stranger.

    So not the point. Passing out drunk is nobody’s free pass to do what they will with your body. Period. End of story.

    Yes that is part of the story. Date rape is horrific but I can also call a woman who gets black out drunk with a man or men she doesn’t know irresponsible. If I were wasted and walked down a city street with $100 bills sticking out all of my pockets, then got jumped you’d call me, at the least, irresponsible wouldn’t you?

    Moreover, there are alot of comments on the misogony. It very well may be but not because it shows stupid women. Look, if your going to stand in the feminist community, you have to take responsibility for the dumb ones too. In these responses I’ve seen alot of remarks about how guys are clueless lead heads who don’t get it. If I as a man have to take responsibilty for guys like that, then you women need to take the Paris Hiltons of the world. These women really do exist you know?

  77. aimai

    I want to thank Brynn for his/her fantastic comments. Really right on and so illuminating. Everyone else’s comments have been so great I don’t have much to add except that the video situation reminds me of the study done many years ago that asked guys whether they were “entitled” to have sex with their date after a cheap meal, a moderately expensive meal, or a very expensive meal. Unsurprisingly there was some incredibly low threshold of cost above which most guys thoughgt they were “entitled” to sex and might even rape to get it–I recall it as being slightly more than a macdonald’s meal.

    I want to cross reference that piece of information with the classic misogynistic cultural complaint/fantasy that women routinely fake orgasm to please men and read the film as a counter-rage-filled-fantasy that men are somehow being “forced” to “cater” to women in order to get their sexual needs filled at some “cost.” In the video, as I understand it because I couldn’t bring myself to watch it, the male protagonist is “forced” to listen to this boring woman when he would rather be doing something else. He could, of course, be doing all those things instead of hanging with this woman but he chooses to stick it out/fake interest in order to get to something else with her which is sex. When she doesn’t put out willingly, he is entitled to take sex because of having “spent” time and money and pretend attention on her.

    Its all quite predictble given our culture but its truly disgusting that this guy would put it out there, or that people would find it entertaiing.

    aimai

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  79. Melissa McEwan

    If I were wasted and walked down a city street with $100 bills sticking out all of my pockets, then got jumped you’d call me, at the least, irresponsible wouldn’t you?

    It’s always so charming to see the wanton and unwanted abuse of my body compared to property theft. Honestly, I can’t even begin to tell you how much you don’t get it if you can construe an incapacitated woman with a man walking alone with valuables hanging out of his pocket. Do you not see how that’s construing a woman’s body as thievable property?

    If you want an honest parallel to your “Date rape is horrific but I can also call a woman who gets black out drunk with a man or men she doesn’t know irresponsible” comment, it wouldn’t be walking down the street with money hanging out of your pockets but: “If I got ‘black out drunk’ with a person or I didn’t know, then got forcibly castrated, you’d call me, at the least, irresponsible, wouldn’t you?”

    Um, no. No one would call you irresponsible that you were wantonly exploited by amoral monsters and your body so egregiously violated. Which is maybe why you didn’t use that example in the first place, but I think it’s probably more likely that it didn’t even come to your mind, because men’s bodies aren’t considered community property for the taking as soon as they get drunk, like women’s bodies. Or visible $100 bills.

    Relying on the “guy getting mugged” comparison tells us two things, however. One: It shows how deeply ingrained the notion of women’s bodies as property is. Comparing a woman’s genitals to a $100 bill visibly dangling out of a man’s pocket is laughable in both practical and intrinsic ways, and yet the association was cited with not a hint of awareness at its patent absurdity. Two: It illustrates how far removed you are from the real threat of rape. Invoking a mugging is evidently the closest thing you can imagine to being forcibly subjected to an assault on one’s sex organs. That must be a lovely world in which to live.

  80. Patty

    People who absorb social conditioning in place of ethics or compassion or self awareness … these are the dangerous fuckers in society. These are the people who’s minds quietly bend around “war of choice” or “a little torture” or date rape.

    NEP,

    Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t write! I’d like to put the above statement on a bumper sticker.

  81. RachelPhilPa

    If I were wasted and walked down a city street with $100 bills sticking out all of my pockets, then got jumped you’d call me, at the least, irresponsible wouldn’t you?

    It’s always so charming to see the wanton and unwanted abuse of my body compared to property theft. Honestly, I can’t even begin to tell you how much you don’t get it if you can construe an incapacitated woman with a man walking alone with valuables hanging out of his pocket. Do you not see how that’s construing a woman’s body as thievable property?

    Yeah, when I read this, I literally started screaming at my screen, “There’s gotta be at least one guy on every goddamned rape thread who compares women’s bodies with $100 bills!!!#Y$%&@#^%^&@%#*@&@!!!”

    Your reply to him was excellent – certainly better than anything I could have put out in my sputtering state.

  82. kellychristine

    Great site, fascinating comments, totally challenging my own views. As a rape victim myself, I hadn’t generalized rapists as ‘masked men’ or as ‘icky guy I dated’ – But as the ‘creepy drunken older relative’. Perhaps I shouldn’t generalize at all. In any case, this video is actively promoting the idea that women are objects, good for only one thing, and it is giving men permission to do whatever is necessary to get that ‘warm hole to put their penises in’. I am feeling ill, now. The misogynist message is, I think, very insidious… which makes it all the more alarming.

    Flagged it as abuse, hope it comes down.

  83. Dan

    Invoking a mugging is evidently the closest thing you can imagine to being forcibly subjected to an assault on one’s sex organs. That must be a lovely world in which to live

    The problem with your analogy is that there is a very small minority of men who will commit date rape, but I think I’m safe in saying that a drunken castration is almost NEVER going to happen. So, again, it’s certainly not the womans fault but there are steps she can take to protect herself. Your indignation that it happens at all is well placed but the idea that “it shouldn’t happen” does nothing to protect my daughter nor keep her aware.

    Moreover, I used the analogy because your right, I don’t have to worry about rape as a woman might. But your sexuality(male or female) is something of value and again, I am very unlikely to have it stolen from me. That in no way gives any allusion that I see women as some sort of public property and any idea to the contrary is ridiculous. Let me also say that I’ve been jumped, robbed and beaten twice in my life and it believe it or not, even for the ugly man you want me to be, it leaves me with some sense of empathy. And yes, if I had done a few things diffrently, I may have avoided the situation. That robbery is illegal or wrong made no difference to the guys who jumped me.

    Again, the idea that I or most men see women as property or as akin to a $100 bill is reading WAY to much into the analogy and should be left in the sentence, not as a way of thinking. The line ” a lovely world to live in” is childish. Rape is a societal problem and it’s part of the world I live in and the one I responsible for.

  84. Nik E Poo

    … the world I live in …

    Victim-blaming and objectifying of women (as you have so proudly accomplished) is exactly what facilitates rape in the world you live in … which is, unfortunately, the world we all live in … fuck you very much for the efforts.

  85. your sexuality(male or female) is something of value…that I or most men see women as property

    These two statements are completely contradictory. And yeah, what Nik said.

  86. Dan

    Victim-blaming and objectifying of women (as you have so proudly accomplished) is exactly what facilitates rape in the world you live in … which is, unfortunately, the world we all live in … fuck you very much for the efforts.

    OMG. you’ve lost your minds. Never once did I blame the victim nor did I or do I see women as objects. Neither of those statements contradictory JackGoff( wow, witty?) So, if you take a minute and reread what I wrote and not be so ready to react,we may have something to discuss. Although the “fuck you” always makes for intellectual discourse.

  87. Kathy Kattenburg

    Perhaps something along the lines of ‘nodding off through dinner and raping your date when she passes out isn’t a compliment or an affirmation.’

    It’s not meant as a compliment or an affirmation. It’s very clear to me, watching that video, that raping the woman after she’s passed out on his sofa is payback for (a) being boring; (b) being a bitch; (c) drinking too much to stay awake to give him the fuck he thinks he’s earned. She passes out before he can fuck her, so he fucks her anyway when she’s unconscious and can’t consent.

  88. Kathy Kattenburg

    If I as a man have to take responsibilty for guys like that, then you women need to take the Paris Hiltons of the world.

    What are you trying to say here? That Paris Hilton is irresponsible and that means she should be raped?

    When did rape become the punishment for being irresponsible or immature?

  89. Dan

    Here you go Nik e Poo and JackGoff(yawn)this what I was reponding to:

    someone said: I certainly didnt find this video funny but I did find it a cautionary tale. The woman did get drunk enough to pass out with a perfect stranger

    to which Tart: So not the point. Passing out drunk is nobody’s free pass to do what they will with your body. Period. End of story.

    …and Melissa McEwan said:Oh sweet lord please spare me. & And there are lots of women, btw, who don’t think this sort of shit applies to them, either–in no small part because victim-blaming is so prevalent, and the responsibility for preventing rape so firmly and singularly placed on women, that they begin to believe they can avoid being raped by their own will, wits, and wisdom.

    My point was to agree w but take exception to Melissa/Tart because they goe to an extreme. The best analogy(as man who is unlikely to be castrated or raped while drunk etc.) I could come up with was the idea of a commodity, something of value. Are there no steps you can take to protect what is yours? I’m talking about a violent act and Melissa says because I’m not seen as community property. Huh? I don’t know whether some women beieve “they can avoid being raped by their own will, wits, and wisdom.” but I do know that getting black out drunk in a strange guys apartment is a cautionary tale.

    Would you walk in a dark parking lot alone?, take rides from strangers?, allow any one into your building? get black out drunk with a guy you just met? No of course not.
    I’m not blaming the victim but also not willing to believe that there’s nothing you can do to be smart and aware of your surroundings.

    I’ll tell my daughter that getting black out drunk in a strange guys apartment is not smart because you never know. That’s preparing her for the world that is out there.

  90. Dan

    What are you trying to say here? That Paris Hilton is irresponsible and that means she should be raped?

    When did rape become the punishment for being irresponsible or immature?

    Are you fucking kidding me? Is that what you read? Are you fucking kidding me?

    I was responding to the idea stated above: The idealization of men and male culture, along with the glorification of “men as eternal boys.” and the idea that some men love the “dumb girl”. I said if I have to take responsibilty as man for those assholes and be judged along with them, then women have to take responsibilty for the eternal egocentric girlchild and all the worst attributes that come with it.

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  92. Kathy Kattenburg

    Would you walk in a dark parking lot alone?, take rides from strangers?, allow any one into your building? get black out drunk with a guy you just met? No of course not.
    I’m not blaming the victim but also not willing to believe that there’s nothing you can do to be smart and aware of your surroundings.

    With the exception of accepting a ride from a stranger, the examples you gave are all things that both women and men do everyday, but only rape victims are blamed for having done them.

    Here are some other things a woman can do to be “smart and aware of her surroundings”:

    Don’t drink at all when you’re with a man, because anytime you drink, you take the chance of getting drunk, and anytime you get drunk in the company of men, you are engaging in risky behavior: you might get raped.

    Don’t frequent bars at all, because that makes you a loose woman and you might get gang-raped on a pool table. (plug “New Bedford” and “rape” into Google search, or “gang rape” “New England” bar).

    Do not go to a guy’s home ever, unless you are married, or engaged to be married. Women are raped every day by men or boys they have known for years, and it’s their fault, because they went into the guy’s house, or let the guy come into their house.

    Do not get into a guy’s car, ever, no matter how well you think you know him. See above.

    Do not jog in a world-famous city park after dark. Even if you get gang-raped and beaten so badly that you almost die and suffer permanent memory loss, there will *always* be some people who think, “Well, what was she doing jogging in Central Park after dark?” And some of them will say it out loud.

    Do not jog outdoors at all, at any time of day or night, by yourself. You are taking an unnecessary risk.

    Do not go out at night, to a movie, a club, a concert, a party, wherever, by yourself. You are taking an unnecessary risk.

    Do not allow yourself to be out on the street alone after dark ever. You are taking an unnecessary risk.

    Do not wear low-cut dresses or overtly sexy clothing. You are taking an unnecessary risk.

    Do not allow yourself to take jobs in certain high-risk fields, like bartending, for instance; or in traditionally male jobs like firefighting, police work, construction worker, etc. You are taking an unnecessary risk.

    Don’t leave your windows open or even unlocked at night. A man or men might come in through that window and rape you. This happened to a cousin of mine. It was her fault because her window was open (it was summer). She was taking an unnecessary risk.

    I could go on and on for a very long time, Dan. I really could. But I’m hoping that this is enough for you to maybe get the point I’m making. There are things that all of us, male or female, do every day or on a regular basis, things that are considered normal and unremarkable, or at the very least, necessary (like walking to your car in a parking lot after dark when there’s no one to accompany you, and you cannot lose that job). And sometimes they are in the wrong place at the wrong time and are mugged or assaulted or raped. But the only instance in which the crime victim is routinely blamed for whatever she was doing at the time the crime occurred is if the victim is a woman who has been raped.

    Yes, there are things a woman can do to try to reduce her risk of being sexually assaulted, but if she IS raped, she will still be blamed. There is no activity or behavior a woman can engage in which is *not* susceptible to being pointed at if the woman is raped while engaged in that activity or behavior. There is no decision she can make — stay home, go out, alone, with a man, with friends, whatever — that cannot be twisted into “taking undue risks” if she happens to be raped.

    The problem is NOT what a woman does or does not do. The problem is the prejudice and distorted thinking that too many people in this society fall into when it comes to rape.

    So if you want to teach your daughter never to get black-out drunk in a man’s home, go ahead. But know that she could still be raped in almost any situation she happens to find herself in, and there will be people around — sometimes in her own family — who will second-guess whatever she was doing just before the rape occurred and blame her for it.

  93. Kathy Kattenburg

    I said if I have to take responsibilty as man for those assholes and be judged along with them, then women have to take responsibilty for the eternal egocentric girlchild and all the worst attributes that come with it.

    Even on that level, it doesn’t make sense. Who here said you have to take responsibility for other men who are assholes? Are you an asshole? You are the only person whose behavior you are responsible for.

    By the same token, why would I be responsible for Paris Hilton’s behavior? I am 30 years older than Paris Hilton, do not have her wealth or fame, do not live the lifestyle she does, and in every way possible am not anything like her. The only thing she and I have in common is an XX chromosome. Why would I need to take responsibility for her immature, irresponsible, spoiled brat behavior? I don’t get that.

    And what does it have to do with rape? That’s what we’re discussing, isn’t it?

  94. My point was to agree w but take exception to Melissa/Tart because they goe to an extreme.

    No, Dan. I’m not going to an extreme. Let me respond to your repeated assertions that you’re “not blaming the victim but also not willing to believe that there’s nothing you can do to be smart and aware of your surroundings” by putting this as bluntly as I can:

    Left to my own devices, I never would have been raped. The rapist was really the key component to the whole thing. I was sober; hardly “sexily” dressed, I was wearing sweatpants and an oversized t-shirt; I was at home; my sexual history was, literally, nonexistent—I was a virgin; I struggled; I said no. There have been times since when I have been walking home, alone, after a few drinks, wearing something that might have shown a bit of leg or cleavage, and I wasn’t raped. The difference was not in what I was doing. The difference was the presence of a rapist.

    As you point out, a small minority of men are rapists. But a small minority of women who drink too much on any given night get raped, too. There will be many more women who are not incapacitated, but are forcibly raped by men they thought they could trust. It’s not fucking about what women are doing; it’s about what RAPISTS are doing. And if you think that 100% of women being 100% alert 100% of the time will stop rape, you’re a fool.

  95. Dan

    Who here said you have to take responsibility for other men who are assholes? Are you an asshole? You are the only person whose behavior you are responsible

    Well you make my point exactly. A few posts had described men in generalities with certain attributes. As In “men do” this or that. It was a side bar to my original discussion. I was being a wise ass to make a point.

    Also, you lecture with the bullet points are appreciated but not needed. I don’t know how to say more that I agree, and fully comprehend everything you state. I don’t know who these soulless & completely inhuman people are that would blame the victim. I think my argument of simply using your head and blaming the victim are being melded as one.

  96. Dan

    It’s not fucking about what women are doing; it’s about what RAPISTS are doing. And if you think that 100% of women being 100% alert 100% of the time will stop rape, you’re a fool.

    Never said that, nor am I moronic enough to think that, so don’t make statements that i’m some sort of fool.

    Getting black out drunk in some strange guys apartment is damn stupid for so many reasons. It is a cautionary tale.

  97. This is a very difficult topic to discuss with any equanimity because those who have not been subjected to the unconscionable violation that is rape simply cannot fully comprehend the effects of such an act, and can therefore inadvertently cause more anger and pain by their words. As one who has not been the victim of anything approaching the complete and total violation that a rape is, I usually stay silent when these topics are presented and ‘discussed’, read and try to understand the futility and rage that is expressed by the victims, and hopefully become a better person by doing so.

    On occasion elsewhere I have tried to express my feelings on this and similar subjects (including here and here), to what degree of success I know not – but nonetheless I have tried.

    What I would like to say here and now, though, is to suggest that, to whatever extent possible, people who are (in my opinion) on the same basic side of the argument would be better served to reserve their anger for those that truly just don’t get it – those who see no problem with the video that has sparked this discussion, rather than those who are trying to be supportive. Even if said attempts fall far short of what may be wished, they are still (once again, my opinion) honestly attempting to further the discussion. Only by engaging positively can we hope to affect change.

    Then again, it is in my nature to try to be a peacemaker (I seem to recall some philosopher who once gave a speech on a mountain that promoted such activity, among others) and to look at all sides of an argument.

    As far as the video itself is concerned, it is vacuous as well as offensive, and the money spent on the production could have been much better spent on any of a myriad of things.

    Finally, what do I know, I’m just a self educated guy with a computer and internet access….

  98. Dr. Loveless

    I don’t know who these soulless & completely inhuman people are that would blame the victim. I think my argument of simply using your head and blaming the victim are being melded as one.

    I don’t think anyone here needs the “Use your head to avoid being a crime victim” speech. We are all adults who have learned what kinds of precautions we can take to minimize our chances of being a victim of a violent crime. And when those precautions fail — as they sometimes do — those of us who have been victimized (assuming we live through it) spend an inordinate amount of time second-guessing ourselves and wondering if we could have been more careful. (“Welcome to PTSD Land. Here’s your accordion.”)

    In cases of rape, however, the victims also have to deal with friends, family members and total strangers who are willing and even eager to do the second-guessing for them.

    I rarely comment on the rape threads here — I’m in the shut-up-and-maybe-I’ll-learn-something camp — but I always read them and I find them enlightening. And in every single thread there’s at least one commenter who coughs up some variety of, “I’m not blaming the victim, but it’s a dangerous world out there and you ladies really need to be more careful.” It may not be blame per se, but it is damn patronizing.

    And as always, it completely boggles my mind that there’s a whole big chunk of humanity that thinks rape is funny. Who are these people?

    OK, back to lurking.

  99. Melissa wrote: It’s not fucking about what women are doing; it’s about what RAPISTS are doing. And if you think that 100% of women being 100% alert 100% of the time will stop rape, you’re a fool.

    Dan’s reply:

    Never said that, nor am I moronic enough to think that, so don’t make statements that i’m some sort of fool.

    In other words, never said that getting raped is about what women are doing. In other words, Dan is not moronic enough to think that rape happens because of what a woman is doing when she’s raped.

    Getting black out drunk in some strange guys apartment is damn stupid for so many reasons. It is a cautionary tale.

    In other words, Dan tells us, rape IS about what women are doing. In other words, Dan DOES believe that if a woman doesn’t get black-out drunk in a man’s apartment, she will not be raped.

    I am fairly certain, though, that if Dan gets drunk at a party and gets mugged at knifepoint on the way home, he will probably not conclude that getting drunk at a party is stupid for so many reasons and is a cautionary tale.

  100. I haven’t read all the comments here yet, I just wanted to say that I sent an “abuse” message about the video. Members can do this by clicking on the link hidden at the very bottom of the page, after the comments, in surely the tiniest font they felt they could get away with. I find that odd, because it is very easy to flag forum comments and people’s images as abuse. Images, btw, that people can’t necessarily search for unless they’re that person’s friend. Odd.

  101. Just fyi, this is the text of my message:

    The video created and posted on myspace by Josh Hopkins is dangerous, hateful, and abusive. Please support women and girls by removing it.
    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1432714753

    From http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm
    In a national survey 27.7% of college women reported a sexual experience since the age of fourteen that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating aggressive behavior which met the legal definition of rape.
    Risk factors for perpetrating sexual violence include: adherence by men to sex role stereotyping negative attitudes of men towards women, alcohol consumption,8,13 acceptance of rape myths by men.
    Non-forceful verbal resistance and lack of resistance are associated with rape completion.

  102. Dan

    That’s right Kathy, you nailed me……yawn.

  103. It’s so awesome when someone nails you with the irrefutable yawn. Amiright?!

    By the way, “JackGoff” is my name, moron. Get a fucking life.

  104. Brynn

    Melissa and Kathy Kattenburg, I am in awe. You two have been so articulate on an incredibly emotional topic, I couldn’t conceive of any way Dan wouldn’t get it.

    But for Dan (and people like him) it is never about getting it. From the beginning, he has been intent upon forcing us to give him satisfaction by saying “You’re right, Dan”—an unfortunate and indefensible approach on any thread, but especially one about rape.

    Dan reads our posts only enough to compose the language of his rebuttals. No real dialog is possible under such circumstances.

  105. Dan

    No Brynn, I could care less about hearing “you’re right”. I am self confident enough not to need a strangers approval. What does bother me is being fit into a pigeon hole and told I’m the problem. I’m sorry, I disagree. If any one has been taken at half their responses, just look at Kathy’s last response to me.

    “In other words, Dan tells us, rape IS about what women are doing. In other words, Dan DOES believe that if a woman doesn’t get black-out drunk in a man’s apartment, she will not be raped.”

    So ridiculous and an absolute bastardization of what I was saying. So you’ve found another dumb guy. I’m sure it’s no suprise.

    And btw JackGoff, if you believe that anyone believes that’s your real name, you need to grab your ass with both hands and jump to get a fucking life.

  106. if you believe that anyone believes that’s your real name

    Heh. My name is John Goff. Troggies like you forced me to blog as JackGoff as a preemptive measure.

  107. JET

    I’m honestly more offended by the crapitude of the song (45 repetitions of the same melodic phrase is more than just a tad uninspired), and the pathetic delivery. Jonathan Coulton he ain’t, not in any department.

  108. Dan reads our posts only enough to compose the language of his rebuttals.

    That is true. He is completely blind to the plain meaning of his own words. It’s called wanting to have it both ways.

  109. Someone earlier commented that watching this video made them realize how much they dislike our culture. Me too. I just saw the movie “Knocked Up.” I knew I wasn’t going to like it based on the trailer I’d seen but it was far worse than I expected. Misogyny is not only hilarious but marketable! I hated “Knocked Up” with every cell in my body – same with this appalling video.

    Thanks for continuing to speak up for decency.

  110. Everybody, this page is your friend.
    http://collect.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=misc.contactInput&classifiedID=0&Mytoken=F22ACDBB-C449-488A-900775960E43C0452864555
    If it didn’t link properly, copy and paste. That’s the “report abuses” page. Go ahead and report this for being offensive. I already did my part, will you?

  111. wiggles

    Kathy Kattenburg: I was referring to a certain poster’s response on the MySpace page that if we “feminazi dykes” would “lighten up” perhaps someone would “gain interest” in us.

    Dan: Whether you like it or not, any response to any rape that involves “she should have” or “she shouldn’t have” is blaming the victim. Check yourself.

  112. Dan

    Dan: Whether you like it or not, any response to any rape that involves “she should have” or “she shouldn’t have” is blaming the victim. Check yourself.

    This all started with the statement that a woman getting black out drunk in a strange guys apart ment is a cautionary tale. I agreed.
    So let me ask this so I can “check myself”. I said above that I’d been robbed and beaten twice in my life. Once when I was teenager( not bad but just roughed up & scared)and the second time when I was in college. I was in the Bronx and I walked back to my apartment alone and certainly wasted. Wallet and watch all exposed. They beat the shit out of me enough that I spent 2 days in the hospital….lost a tooth, fractured eye socket, cracked rib, cuts and bruises. The cops said I was an idiot, my friends said I was an idiot, my dad told me I better be more heads up. So my question, Seeing I could have been jumped no matter what, did I do anything wrong?

  113. Dan

    Kathy said:In other words, Dan tells us, rape IS about what women are doing. In other words, Dan DOES believe that if a woman doesn’t get black-out drunk in a man’s apartment, she will not be raped

    Are you fucking kidding me or do you need to think I”m that stupid?Honestly, do you need it?

  114. PortlyDyke

    Dan, I’m going to make an honest attempt to speak to you.

    I truly hope that you do everything that you can to keep your daughter safe — yes, tell her not to get passed out drunk (anytime, for any reason, with anyone) — get her trained in self-defense — teach her that no one ever gets to touch her body without her permission — I encourage you to do all that you can to educate her in living safely in the culture we currently live in.

    Sadly, I believe that, even if you do all this, you may not be able to keep her safe from being raped . . . . unless . . . unless . .

    . . there is a successful effort to bring ALL men and women in our culture to the understanding that having sex with someone who does not (or can not) consent — is rape — and is NEVER acceptable — under any circumstances.

    I encourage you to take the frustration that you seem to be expressing towards the commenters here, and go out and use this energy to educate other men (if you are a male) about why rape is never acceptable.

    The messages you received from your friends, the cops, and your dad after your assault — basically, that you were an “idiot” for walking home alone, inebriated — is a classic form of “blaming the victim”. I can imagine that you felt shamed and blamed, rather than upheld and supported. I feel sad when I imagine that. I remember these feelings myself.

    I am a rape survivor. I was raped from the time I was 3 years old until I was an adolescent.

    I was told, many times, that if only I had “done this” or “done that”, I could have avoided being raped. I spent a good deal of my childhood trying to strategize a way of avoiding rape. It took me many, many years, and thousands of dollars (my own $) worth of therapy to understand that the sexual violation that I experienced was not “my fault”, in any way.

    This may seem strange to you. You may say “Of course it wasn’t your fault! You were a child!”

    But you would be amazed at how many people gave me this message — psychiatrists asked me how I had dressed as a child, if I masturbated at an early age, and whether I thought that I had done anything to provoke my perpetrator.

    This is not an uncommon experience amongst rape survivors, IME.

    If you would tell your daughter “Never get passed-out drunk on a date!” — but you wouldn’t tell your son this — well, that is my point, I think.

    The concept that rape is so completely a part of our culture that all we can do is prepare our children (and especially our female children) for the worst possible scenario is profoundly depressing to me.

    The commenters who have spoken to you, I believe, have done so because they want a change in consciousness about this issue.

    I wasn’t going to post any further on this — I wanted to stay out of the fray. But I find that I cannot.

    You may discount my words here — you may pick them apart and throw them back at me — you may call me a feminazi, pervert, or worse — you may choose to project that I am attacking you — but I will continue speaking to you, Dan, because I believe that if I can bring the tiniest shift in consciousness, to even one person, that is something that I want to do.

    This is the shift I want from you, Dan: I want you to go back and read the entire post and all the comments, and watch how it transformed from a post about a video to a discussion of underlying assumptions and cultural memes.

    I want you to consider that the energy fueling this thread is huge. It’s been going on for more than two days now, and most of the rape-related threads at Shakesville tend to be equally long.

    I want you to consider that making sure that your daughter doesn’t get drunk on a date may not be enough to keep her safe from being raped, and to consider what that may mean about the issue being discussed.

    Thanks for reading this, Dan, if you do.

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  116. schmemma

    and let’s not forget that it is this tendency to blame the victims of rape, the suggestion that they would have been able to prevent it had they perhaps not been so drunk/worn that dress/mistakenly trusted someone/etc etc etc, that makes people less likely to report a rape in the first place..

    for me, this is maybe the most terrifying aspect of the culture that we live in, in which blame is inevitably placed upon the victim in some shape or form, as it risks leading said victim to believe that they were irresponsible, that it was in some way their fault, and so might feel that they cannot, or should not tell anyone about it..

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  118. Dan

    Well PortlyDyke has left the most thoughtful response so far.

    I realize that no matter what I may not be able to protect my daughter( BTW, of course I’m a guy, why would I hide?) and it’s almost heartbreaking to say that, if that makes any sense. I wonder though, if in my experience, my odds of getting jumped were x, didn’t I increase my odds by x*3 by being a dope? That has been my point all along. Why increase my odds?

    I must leave this board, the questions here have plagued me for days now, the idea that I’m some sort of misogonist and “victim blamer” have pissed me off and made me feel like awful and I’m still thinking about it. For those that I’ve pissed off, I apologize, for those that think I’m trash, you wouldn’t if you knew me( the problems with blogs) and for those that were thoughtful I appreciate it.

  119. Melissa McEwan

    Well PortlyDyke has left the most thoughtful response so far.

    Actually, Dan, PortlyDyke (whose comment was indeed worthy of compliment) left the most accommodating and decliate reponse so far. There were plenty of equally thoughtful comments before hers.

    And I say, with all due respect, that while you continue to think about why you elicited charges of misogyny and victim-blaming in this thread, I hope you also consider what it means that you made your departure with a flourish of deeming this particular comment “most thoughtful” above all others, in spite of its repeating many of the same ideas.

    I would also like to note to you that not a single person referred to you as “trash” in this thread.

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  121. Vera Venom

    You know what *I* find hilarious?

    A coward misogynist runs a site called “herdwatch” that mocks rape, rape victims, and feminists in general and actually thinks that’s not following the herd.

    The herd pretending not to be the herd

    That’s funny.

  122. Dan

    Melissa said:Actually, Dan, PortlyDyke (whose comment was indeed worthy of compliment) left the most accommodating and decliate reponse so far. There were plenty of equally thoughtful comments before hers.

    And I say, with all due respect, that while you continue to think about why you elicited charges of misogyny and victim-blaming in this thread, I hope you also consider what it means that you made your departure with a flourish of deeming this particular comment “most thoughtful” above all others, in spite of its repeating many of the same ideas.

    I would also like to note to you that not a single person referred to you as “trash” in this thread.

    Ugh… Ok Melissa you got me. All I was looking for was someone to “love” me. Now I can heal. Kiss my ass and don’t give me the ” with all due respect line”.

  123. Melissa McEwan

    Ugh… Ok Melissa you got me. All I was looking for was someone to “love” me. Now I can heal. Kiss my ass and don’t give me the ” with all due respect line”.

    I seriously have no idea what prompted that response to what I said, Dan.

  124. Yes, Dan. All Ms. McEwan wanted, all any of us wanted, was for you to grant us permission to kiss your ass. I positively swoon with gratitude.

    Look. The thing about ‘decreasing the odds’ is not new. We have heard it before. The victim in the De Anza baseball team party gang rape shouldn’t have been there, shouldn’t have gotten drunk, because rape, unlike other crimes, is somehow a force of nature. But it’s not. It’s really not. And we never hear about all the things men should do to avoid being rapists.

    (Actually, we’ve offered suggestions as to how men might avoid being rapists. Oddly, they don’t seem to be nearly as popular as the suggestions you have for women.)

    There’s a lot of rage around this issue, all of it entirely merited. Ms. McEwan did everything she was supposed to and a man still raped her. PortlyDyke was three years old when the years of rape she endured began. My wife did everything right and her boyfriend raped her. A dear friend did everything right and was raped repeatedly by her husband. Her partner was a child when her father began raping her. My wife, my friends, none of them reported their rapes to any authority. Reporting their rapes would have made their lives even worse.

    These aren’t even all the women in my life who’ve been raped. I haven’t myself, but it’s come close a few times. For you to suggest that there are things we could do to avoid being raped, treating, as those who have such helpful suggestions often do, rapists’ propensity to rape women as something that cannot be prevented, only mitigated by proper risk management, is — again! — not new.

    You don’t understand the rage. You don’t really seem to care much that you were Man Number 8,497,633 to tell us that women need to be more careful to avoid getting raped — no, it’s the women’s fault for taking things to extremes. Your feelings were hurt and that made you angry.

    I’m not even the least bit sorry your feelings were hurt. I don’t care that you’re angry. You said something ignorant, and it bruised your male privilege when people disagreed with you forcefully. As my ex’s therapist used to say, “That’s unfortunate.”

  125. PortlyDyke

    “Kiss my ass and don’t give me the ” with all due respect line”.

    Hey — Dan — I took the time to address you “thoughtfully” (by your own admission) — I did so because I wanted to take your word that you were not just being a contrary a-hole, but looking for real dialogue.

    Your comment to Melissa does very little to support me in giving you the benefit of that doubt.

    I hope that you do go away from this thread with thoughts changed, and perspectives altered.

    As to pissing me off — I wasn’t happy to see you suggest that JackGoff grab his ass and jump to get a life — I happen to have a soft spot in my heart for JG — but I didn’t wale on your ass about it. I am not happy to hear you tell Sis to kiss your ass, either. I think that she has engaged you civilly — I would ask you to do the same.

    I did speak to you with all the civility and delicacy that I could muster, but perhaps what I did that was most effective was expose a vulnerable part of myself in telling you a piece of my own personal story. In the face of that kind of direct reality check about rape, I often see a shift in people’s perspective.

    When I read your response to Melissa, I now wonder whether I was casting pearls before swine.

    I don’t think you’re trash. I don’t think anyone is trash.

    When I read how you’ve chosen to communicate with people here, I think that you may want to re-evaluate why you have assumed that people “think you’re trash” — perhaps your own feelings about your communication choices have something to do with this assumption that you have projected onto others.

    My experience is that conciliatory/apologist attitudes about rape, subtle and overt, only change when they are challenged.

    Personally, I want to be confronted on faulty thinking, subtle internalized sexism/homophobia, and any other “ism” that I am not aware of (yet). That’s why I come here. It’s some of the most courageous and thoughtful commentary that I’ve found to date.

  126. Lya Kahlo

    Maybe it’s just me, but imo another problem with the pseudo-“helpful tips” lobbed at women (aside from their being useless at preventing any rapes at all) is that they imply a low opinion of men as a whole. Saying to women “don’t get drunk at a party” etc ad nauseum, suggests that the speaker believes that all men are just itching to rape at the first available opporunity. It suggests that the speaker considers all men to be crazed beasts who can’t be expected to exercise even the slightest bit of self-control and so women must be on guard at all times. It’s just another way of relying on the lazy “boys will be boys” excuse to prevent ever actually holding boys accountable for their behavior. It suggests that women are moral, men are depraved. Which, if I were male, I’d consider insulting.

    If such a thing was said by a female, it would be answered with cries of “bigotry!” and “man-hating!” But when a man implies the same thing – he’s just being “helpful”.

    Blargh.

  127. Margaret

    I have read this whole sorry thread with great interest. Here is my observation:

    We have a video which not only seems to make a joke of rape but seems to condone it. (Note the singer’s comment to the passed out woman that she shouldn’t have had so much to drink. Note the implication that rape is appropriate when a woman has the nerve to pass out after her date listened to her vapid prattle.) We have a video that is misogynist from beginning to end. (Note that only women and gay men talk endlessly in cliches. Note the implication that getting laid should be the man’s reward for listening politely to his date. Note the implication that a man would naturally prefer to hang out with his male buddies than spend time with a woman unless sex is involved. Note the dehumanizing of the women involved and the singer ultimately yelling in his date’s ear that she’s a “Bitch.”) This piece of crap just reeks of misogyny.

    Yet early on in the thread we have Natalie commenting that this is a “cautionary” tale for WOMEN about how WE should act. And Dan takes that notion and runs with it. It’s the deflection of the misogyny issue that’s offensive. Sure, it’s a good idea to avoid passing out in situations where one may be vulnerable to sexual assault — but that’s not the point. The point is that we have a nasty piece of pop culture reeking of total contempt for and dehumanization of women, and that it is being applauded by posters of both sexes on MySpace and elsewhere. Yet somehow this thread has been derailed into a discussion of what women should and shouldn’t do — instead of a discussion about the misogyny of this particular piece, and the hatred spewing from this Josh Hopkins character.

  128. Dan

    PortlyDyke said:
    Hey — Dan — I took the time to address you “thoughtfully” (by your own admission) — I did so because I wanted to take your word that you were not just being a contrary a-hole, but looking for real dialogue. and “As to pissing me off — I wasn’t happy to see you suggest that JackGoff grab his ass and jump to get a life ”

    PD, if you take a look back at the posts(which most don’t, they read a little and then react)I didn’t initiate the epithets but responded in kind. JG & Nik E poo told me to go fuck myself and get a life.

    Moreover, if you don’t see that Melissa was absolutely insulting me, more less saying I just wanted someone to be “nice” to me,(and a hundrded other things implied) you need to read it again. And yes for that, she can kiss my ass.

  129. Dan

    Moira said,”and it bruised your male privilege when people disagreed with you forcefully”

    First, Moira is a fantastic name.

    Second, let me say:

    I can never understand because the patriarchy system places on me,as a man, privledges that I have not earned. These privledges include power and a sense of heredity that subjugates women, diminishes their worth and clouds my vision to see women as a piece of property. The only way for me to ever understand would be to either be a woman or to completely reject my male attitudes born of a society hostile to women.

    Melissa, am I on my way to redemption yet? Please love me!

  130. “JG & Nik E poo told me to go fuck myself and get a life.”

    Actually, Dan, I believe that when JG told you to “get a fucking life”, it was in terms of your jab about his handle, (wherein you questioned that this was his real name). Nik E said “fuck you very much for the efforts” far above in the thread.

    Not to put too fine a point on this, but I personally do make a discernment between “fuck you” and “go fuck yourself”. (Just cuz I love the particularities of potty mouth. :) )

    I don’t really care who “initiated the epithets” (and BTW, I think that JG did actually use an epithet when he used the word “moron”, but I don’t believe that “fuck you” is an epithet in the technical sense).

    But perhaps the more cogent point I would make is this: I find it disingenuous at best, and hypocritical at worst, to simultaneously criticize others for taking the “low road” of simply cussing someone out “Although the “fuck you” always makes for intellectual discourse.” and then take the low road yourself when it is convenient to your purpose “And yes for that, she can kiss my ass.

    I have re-read the post, as you suggested, and I do NOT believe that Melissa was insulting you. I believe that she was pointing out that the comment that you deemed “most thoughtful” (mine) was a comment that was fairly non-confrontive of your attitudes.

    I believe that she was attempting to point your attention to something that you may not be aware of — that many men become very defensive and even move into an offensive mode when they are confronted directly by women (and perhaps even more so when confronted directly by other men) about matters touching on misogyny — that these men may not even be aware that this is happening.

    I believe that, if you read (and take the time to comment on) Melissa’s blog, there must be a reason that you do so — either because you think that this blog contains some merit, and you genuinely want to engage in meaningful conversation with others here, or because you are trolling for response. I hope it’s the former, rather than the latter.

    Here is a direct question: What do you actually mean for someone to do when you say “Kiss my ass”?

  131. Melissa McEwan

    if you don’t see that Melissa was absolutely insulting me, more less saying I just wanted someone to be “nice” to me,(and a hundrded other things implied) you need to read it again

    Actually, I wasn’t insulting you, but exhorting you to consider something perhaps you hadn’t, and that thing was not that you “just wanted someone to be ‘nice” to” you. I didn’t feel a smidgeon of malice as I wrote my comment, nor was I being snide. If I had intended to insult you, it would be evident, as I wouldn’t remotely feel obliged to hide it behind a façade. When I am polite, I am polite; and when I am not, I am not.

    And if there’s one thing that anyone who haunts these parts knows about me, it’s that.

    I have been polite to you, Dan. But by all means, continue to invite me to kiss your ass and reveal yourself to be the insolent fool that you are.

    See? Now then, I was insulting you. And deservedly so.

  132. “I must leave this board, the questions here have plagued me for days now, the idea that I’m some sort of misogonist and “victim blamer” have pissed me off and made me feel like awful and I’m still thinking about it.”

    Fetch the smelling salts! Dan has fainted!!!!!

    “Melissa, am I on my way to redemption yet? Please love me!

    Oh . . . not so much, I guess.

    That’s it Dan — no more responses from me. Please do not waste my time.

  133. Dan

    PD, I’m not sure what trolling for a response is? Is that being a jerk for the sake of stirring the pot? Also, I don’t understand your direct question as to kiss my ass? Self explanitory no?

    Melissa, I don’t believe you for a second.

  134. Melissa McEwan

    Melissa, I don’t believe you for a second.

    What reason do I have to lie?

  135. Dan

    What reason do I have to lie?

    Because it suits you. What you were implying is that I can’t take a woman confronting me directly, forcefully and with conviction. That’s insulting. You don’t see that? No, of course you don’t because as a male, I have an underlying attitude that any objection from a woman is defiance, that I need women to fit a role of the nuturing woman to ease my male ego even if I’m wrong. You couch it in ”
    exhorting you to consider something perhaps you hadn’t”

    Yeah, that’s not insulting?

  136. Anne

    Dan, I’d be interested in why you’ve taken a FICTIONAL PORTRAYAL of a woman in a music video (that was made by a man, to boot) and somehow gotten the idea that women have a habit of going around getting “black out drunk” at the homes of men they don’t know. Maybe rather than getting your ideas of what women do from media made by men, you should take a look at what actual real, breathing women do. Pretty much every U.S. study on the subject has shown that men binge drink more than women, and do you think that doesn’t have something to do with the fact that we’re always acting with greater caution than men? I never, ever leave my house without the awareness that I’m vulnerable to all kinds of horrific abuse simply because of my gender. Because of that constant fear I go around with so much tension in my body that I’ve developed severe upper body pain and can’t even sleep on my side anymore; I just bought a 50-dollar pillow in hopes that it will help ease my pain.

    Also, Dan, let me ask you this: If this were the 1950s, would you insinuate that black people could be doing more to prevent themselves from getting lynched, that their behavior was somehow to blame for getting lynched? If not, you need to ask yourself why that type of thinking would be offensive when it comes to race but not when it comes to sex. We’ve gotten so incredibly used to the idea that women don’t need or deserve equal freedom in this world that most of us, including women, don’t even question the assumption that women’s freedom should be severely restricted because men are uncontrollable rapist thugs. (That’s patriarchy’s beliefs about men, mind you, not mine.) If you truly do care about ending rape, Dan, this is a terrible way to do it, and it won’t work. Women and other populations at risk of rape have been trying to prevent rape for millenia, and it hasn’t worked because we are not the ones committing it. You haven’t said anything new or anything that hasn’t been tried already, and we take offense because you come here like you have all the answers, when many of us here have been raped and have been researching this very subject for years. Thinking that somehow you have the one argument that will change the minds of people who have read piles of books on the subject and have been there will, as you’ve seen, offend a lot of people. And if you’re a rational person, I think you’ll understand why that is.

    Furthermore, expecting all women to behave ourselves perfectly all the time is a really unrealistic expectation — as I said earlier, men binge drink more often than women, yet they don’t expect to be raped when they do it. And people binge drink for all sorts of reasons — because they’re depressed, because they like themselves more when they’re drunk, because they’re at a bachelorette party, because they got a raise, because they got fired, hell, maybe they binge drink because they were raped and the booze numbs the pain. Scolding women because of the actions of a non-existent woman in a music video isn’t going to change the fact that women, just like men, will sometimes binge drink no matter how often they’ve heard warnings not to. Your comments here offer nothing that every woman doesn’t hear all the time growing up, from friends, from parents, from e-mails, from newspaper articles. If telling women not to binge drink prevented rape, rape would no longer exist, first of all because plenty of women get raped while sober, and secondly because drinking is a HUGE part of how we socialize; women who want to do it aren’t going to stop doing it because of some vague warnings, especially when there are SO MANY OTHER THINGS that we’re not “supposed” to do because we’re women. When you get so many messages about all the things you shouldn’t do because you’re a woman, it gets REALLY FUCKING DIFFICULT to do all of them, and some women just say “fuck it” and do what they want. And hell, can you blame them? Why should men be allowed to enjoy life while women are expected to stay cooped up, sober, and dressed in a burka all the time lest they get raped?

    Also, speaking of strict dress codes, in Islam alcohol is forbidden. If women get raped because they’re drunk, why does rape happen more often in Islamic countries? Oh, right. It’s because of entitlement and hate, the real causes of rape.

  137. Dan

    Anne that was long and impassioned but way off the point I was trying to make.

  138. Anne

    No, of course you don’t because as a male, I have an underlying attitude that any objection from a woman is defiance, that I need women to fit a role of the nuturing woman to ease my male ego even if I’m wrong.

    Has anybody here ever read the book “The Mismeasure of Woman”? Remember the study where they noted that women didn’t like other women who used a lot of hedge words and spoke in a hesitant, submissive way (using words such as “like” and “you know” and “I think” and always speaking in question marks) but men were more likely to trust women who talked that way and, worse yet, generally didn’t trust women who didn’t speak in a more hesitant, passive way or use hedge words? Creepy. As. Fuck. And that book rocks, except for one weird, rambly chapter on love. It’s by Carol Tavris, BTW, and it should be mandatory reading in schools.

    Ohmigod. I just edited my post and took out a bunch of unnecessary “likes.”

  139. Anne

    Anne that was long and impassioned but way off the point I was trying to make.

    Well, too bad you’re not better at clearly making your point then.

  140. Melissa McEwan

    What you were implying is that I can’t take a woman confronting me directly, forcefully and with conviction. That’s insulting.

    Well, no. I said quite bluntly (not “implied”) that the difference between the post you deemed the “most thoughtful” and other comments was not, objectively and with regard to content, more thoughtful than many others in the thread, but it was more accommodating, specifically giving you a “benefit of the doubt” that others were not giving you for various reasons.

    Noting that you were more dismissive of less delicately worded comments is neither the same as “saying I just wanted someone to be ‘nice’ to me” as you first categorized it, nor as “implying that I can’t take a woman confronting me directly, forcefully and with conviction” as you have just now categorized it.

    I did not intend to insult you by pointing that out to you, but instead to give you a different perspective. After all, you said you were bothered by having been labeled a misogynist and a victim-blamer, so I figured you might be interested in another perspective. I was obviously wrong.

    And, for whatever it’s worth, accusing me of being a liar “because it suits [me]” while you’re complaining about having been insulted might come off to some people as the tiniest bit hypocritical. Just saying.

  141. Dan

    And, for whatever it’s worth, accusing me of being a liar “because it suits [me]” while you’re complaining about having been insulted might come off to some people as the tiniest bit hypocritical. Just saying.

    What? I said I didn’t believe you, as in, your intent. I never said you were a lair. You maybe, you may not be. I don’t know you at all except for your posts here. I said I didn’t believe the motive of your response…disingenuos. Beacuse it suits you was not the best response to ” why would I lie”.

  142. Melissa McEwan

    What? I said I didn’t believe you, as in, your intent. I never said you were a lair.

    Let’s recap:

    I told you what the intent of my comment was.

    You said: “Melissa, I don’t believe you for a second.”

    Ergo, I am either: A) Lying about what my intent was; or B) Suffering from a psychotic break in which I can’t discern my own intent.

    So if you weren’t calling me a liar, I am to assume you are calling me mentally ill?

    It’s got to be one or the other, because when I tell you what my intent was when I wrote the comment, and you say you don’t believe me, there’s no gray area.

  143. Dan

    I did not intend to insult you by pointing that out to you, but instead to give you a different perspective. After all, you said you were bothered by having been labeled a misogynist and a victim-blamer, so I figured you might be interested in another perspective. I was obviously wrong.

    …and reading this again convinces me of that more. I believe your starting point, your perspective, is that men are threatend by confident, well spoken, forceful women. If PD post was at all concilitory,( was it?) if fit that paradigm perfectly.

  144. Melissa McEwan

    I believe your starting point, your perspective, is that men are threatend by confident, well spoken, forceful women.

    Believe that all you want, but my “perspective” is not that “men” are threatened by confident, well-spoken, forceful women.

    First of all, any point I was making was specific to you and your behavior in this thread. You are not “men.” You are one man, and something that I say directly to you based on behavior you have exhibited is not the same thing as saying it about “men.”

    Secondly, my point was not that you are threatened but that you, for whatever reason (and I did not speculate implicitly or otherwise), were not only more responsive to a comment with a tone that was more delicate and accommodating, but went so far as to deem it the “most thoughtful” in the thread, even though it reiterated many previously raised points. Those are just facts which I was pointing out to you. You’re reading a lot into them that I didn’t put out there, which really isn’t my problem.

  145. Melissa McEwan

    Those are just facts which I was pointing out to you.

    Which, btw, I wouldn’t have done had you not opened the door by noting you were bothered by having been treated as a misogynist and a victim-blamer.

  146. Dan

    my point was not that you are threatened but that you, for whatever reason (and I did not speculate implicitly or otherwise), were not only more responsive to a comment with a tone that was more delicate and accommodating, but went so far as to deem it the “most thoughtful” in the thread, even though it reiterated many previously raised points. You’re reading a lot into them that I didn’t put out there, which really isn’t my problem.

    No, I’m reading it correctly and again I don’t believe you for a second. You’re point is exactly that I took to heart the softer response because of everything I stated previously. If not then from your perspective, why was that? Opinion?

    We are so far down the rabbit hole with he said/she said.

  147. Dan

    Which, btw, I wouldn’t have done had you not opened the door by noting you were bothered by having been treated as a misogynist and a victim-blamer.

    You’re proving my point. You were trying to enlighten me because I opened the door. As in I may not even see my own misogyny. Sentences like ” for whatever reason” and “those are just the facts” are playing hide and seek. My previous accusation of your thought process is even more evident.

  148. Melissa McEwan

    No, I’m reading it correctly and again I don’t believe you for a second.

    Sad.

    I’m done here. Ta.

  149. Dan

    My sentiments exactly. I continue to learn from sites like this but whenever I read your posts, I’ll know your starting point.

  150. shen

    so, “subscribe to this entry” email notifications = bad idea. point learned. now how do i insert a massive eye roll.

    and while he said he was done here, for the record, after over 100 emails on the topic, i am kinda left feeling like you are being an ass there Dan….

    “Has anybody here ever read the book “The Mismeasure of Woman”? Remember the study where they noted that women didn’t like other women who used a lot of hedge words and spoke in a hesitant, submissive way (using words such as “like” and “you know” and “I think” and always speaking in question marks) but men were more likely to trust women who talked that way and, worse yet, generally didn’t trust women who didn’t speak in a more hesitant, passive way or use hedge words? Creepy. As. Fuck. And that book rocks, except for one weird, rambly chapter on love. It’s by Carol Tavris, BTW, and it should be mandatory reading in schools.

    Ohmigod. I just edited my post and took out a bunch of unnecessary “likes.””

    Anne, i have never read it, but it sounds like something i may have to check out. does the study say anything about the percentages of women and men who use the hedge words and phrases? i have been mistaken for female a lot of times “on teh nets” and i am wondering if there might be a connection there.

    curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

  151. I can never understand because the patriarchy system places on me,as a man, privledges that I have not earned. These privledges include power and a sense of heredity that subjugates women, diminishes their worth and clouds my vision to see women as a piece of property. The only way for me to ever understand would be to either be a woman or to completely reject my male attitudes born of a society hostile to women.

    Incorrect, Dan. You can learn to be aware of your privilege. (I have put a shitload of effort into learning to be aware of my privilege as a white person, and it is not easy. On my good days, I think I’ve done a half-decent job of it.)) When a woman tells you what her experience has taught her, instead of getting defensive, try to find out why you feel threatened and defensive.

    And I’m going to tell you where Ms. McEwan is starting from (learned from reading her posts and comments, bizarrely enough): She’s starting from being a woman and someone who was raped. At home. Modestly dressed. Stone cold sober.

    Stop trying to be right, because until you stop arguing and start listening, you’re not going to get to know how privilege affects you and everyone around you. Okay? (One benefit of privilege is that you get to be right a whole lot of the time without people calling you on it.)

    And hey. The last guy I got into it with in a rape thread got an invitation to get cancer (of the ass!) and die. Civility is such a fine thing, innit? Glad you like my name, thanks.

  152. Lya Kahlo

    “Stop trying to be right, because until you stop arguing and start listening, you’re not going to get to know how privilege affects you and everyone around you. Okay? ”

    I think it’s pretty clear Dan is only interested in keeping his prilvledge. Multiple reasoned posts from Melissa and all he managed in response was the equivalent of sticking is fingers in his ears and stomping on the ground saying “I can’t hear you.”

    If Melissa had been a male instead that conversation would have been half as long and we would all have been subjected to half of Dan’s dishonest whining.

  153. Dan

    Stop trying to be right, because until you stop arguing …….

    LOL!

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  155. Dan, sweetie, all they’re trying to say is that there is more than one way to discuss something, and the debate method isn’t always the best one, inasmuch as it tends to push people to care more about getting the “gotcha!” – oh, I’m sorry, the “LOL!” – than actually trying to understand what people are saying and thinking.

    So, sorry, but no “gotcha!” this time.

  156. ginmar

    A good companion piece to the Tavris book is “The Myth of Womens’ Masochism” which goes into how women get treated by (male)doctors and the medical establishment.

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  158. Michael, Somewhere in Boston

    Maybe this is covered later in the comments (I only read a dozen or so), but who the hell would ever want to have sex with someone who wasn’t even conscious, never mind actually against her will?

  159. ginmar

    So simple a comment, yet so chilling? What a turnoff to have sex with a cold fish who’s unconscious! Um, it’s not sex, it’s rape.

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